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meneer
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Re: header

Post by meneer » Sat Aug 09, 2008 5:30 am

dodon_nouva90 wrote: beda ga si konsumsi BBM nouva ama Grand civic?
secara CC ama bobot yg d bawa beda,...
ya pasti beda lah oms...secara dari bo2t dan cc udah beda
kalo dari ilmu teori mah pasti borosan GC sedan yg notabene bo2t dan CC-nya lebih besar dibandingkan nouva


tapi hal itu jadi tuidak berlaku apabila kondisi kesehatan mesin jadi acuan pembanding...bisa ajah tuh nouva lebih boros dari GC secara tuh GC sedan mesinnya lebih sehat dan terawat daripada Nouva ;)
adeindra wrote:wahahahahaha....dasar anak muda masih pada pacar2an...
udah tua....jadi berasa tua beneran nih gue
gara2 pacaran dari kampus ama die eh...langsung jadi istri, kaga ngerasain yang laen deh.... :(


heheheh.,...jadi curhat

dodon_nouva90

Re: header

Post by dodon_nouva90 » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:03 am

meneer wrote: ya pasti beda lah oms...secara dari bo2t dan cc udah beda
kalo dari ilmu teori mah pasti borosan GC sedan yg notabene bo2t dan CC-nya lebih besar dibandingkan nouva


tapi hal itu jadi tuidak berlaku apabila kondisi kesehatan mesin jadi acuan pembanding...bisa ajah tuh nouva lebih boros dari GC secara tuh GC sedan mesinnya lebih sehat dan terawat daripada Nouva ;)

OOooooo,...
gtw ya om??
krain ane, nova ane boros gra2 cc kecil bawa bobt gede..
jadi kan tu mesin nya krja berat bawa bobot body mbilnya...
coz mesin ane klo ama bngkel2 msi d bilang alus om,....

waduh ga tw d om
binun jadinya
tp mungkin jga karbu ane da kotor bgt ya om??
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: header

Post by meneer » Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:02 pm

dodon_nouva90 wrote:

OOooooo,...
gtw ya om??
krain ane, nova ane boros gra2 cc kecil bawa bobt gede..
jadi kan tu mesin nya krja berat bawa bobot body mbilnya...
coz mesin ane klo ama bngkel2 msi d bilang alus om,....

waduh ga tw d om
binun jadinya
tp mungkin jga karbu ane da kotor bgt ya om??
:lol: :lol: :lol:
bisa juga tuh oms...jadi mungki aja tuh novinya dah waktunya serpis besar... ;)
adeindra wrote:wahahahahaha....dasar anak muda masih pada pacar2an...
udah tua....jadi berasa tua beneran nih gue
gara2 pacaran dari kampus ama die eh...langsung jadi istri, kaga ngerasain yang laen deh.... :(


heheheh.,...jadi curhat

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Re: header

Post by hanggoroz » Sun Aug 10, 2008 10:05 pm

Nawee wrote:[
bensin ngga masalah tuh, kl itungan yg bikin bener kek buatan standar adi or RKK.
fyi GC ane pake header 4-2-1 tarikan mantab, bensin 1:12 dalkot...
:) :) :) :)
Wuidih, serem banget GCnya om Nawee 1:12, punya ane sekarang cuman 1:7,5 dalkot, lagi bingung nih enaknya diapain yah supaya bisa irit kayak punya om Nawee.
Bagi-bagi masukan dong, Gc ane sebaiknya diapain aja supaya bisa irit dan sip?

Dari Om Jarno kan ada info yang bengkel kenalpot adi sama RKK, nah kalo yang dikata om Nawee, Odi itu dimana dan contact no.nya dong!

Cheers!

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Re: header

Post by Nawee » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:27 am

hanggoroz wrote:
Wuidih, serem banget GCnya om Nawee 1:12, punya ane sekarang cuman 1:7,5 dalkot, lagi bingung nih enaknya diapain yah supaya bisa irit kayak punya om Nawee.
Bagi-bagi masukan dong, Gc ane sebaiknya diapain aja supaya bisa irit dan sip?

Dari Om Jarno kan ada info yang bengkel kenalpot adi sama RKK, nah kalo yang dikata om Nawee, Odi itu dimana dan contact no.nya dong!

Cheers!
telp ODI-nya wanda tau jg om, coz ane pasangnya di sTandar Adi Knalpot yg dah ada itungannya.
:) :) :) :)

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Re: header

Post by Nawee » Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:34 am

dodon_nouva90 wrote:

ko bisa irit yak??
dulu ane pake header 4-1 + knalpot ganti, boros bener om,...
bisa cma 1:5 mpe 1:6 dalem kota,.....

wah,mobil ane ko ajaib pisan yak?
hahaha

trus skrg d standarin semua cma bisa 1:7 mpe 1:9
klo di tol baru d 1:13...
beda ga si konsumsi BBM nouva ama Grand civic?
secara CC ama bobot yg d bawa beda,...
tuk harian yg butuh stop & go mstina pake header 4-2-1 jd akselerasi gigi bwh dah ngisi coz kl pake header 4-1 bagus ditarikan atas doang bwhnya kurang.
Boros-iritnya BBM bkn hny tergantung dr header aja msh ada yg laen kek pengapian, karb, kesehatan mesin, kaki2, AC, and etc yg kerjana saling berkaitan satu sama lainnya. :) :) :) :)

General Lee

Re: header

Post by General Lee » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:47 pm

dhemilencok wrote:buat dalkot bagusan header 4-1 apa 4-2-1 ya?? kalo bikin di budi motor permata hijau bagus ga??
range harga brpaan ya om???
Wah header ya. mungkin gue bisa bantu, Bro.
Header Tech Information (Header Parts & Powerband)

A common question I often get on Honda forums is: should I get a 4-2-1 (tri-Y) header or should I get a 4-1? You may want to understand some basics about header design before making your decision about purchasing one, so that your choice is an informed one. You have to remember that it is called an exhaust SYSTEM. Getting a header without considering how the header fits in with the cat and exhaust could prove to be a mistake you will regret in the future, if the header turns out to be incompatible with the other system parts. They work together as a unit to extract as much exhaust flow speed as possible.In this section, I'll try to show various aspects of header design and how these design characteristics affect your car's power output.For specific information on various header brands for the Bseries, please check out the header buyer's guide article here at TI.It is bandwidth intensive with many jpeg's and so please be patient and allow it load if you have a 56k modem.HEADER DESIGNThe most common thing you hear is 4-2-1 makes more midrange power at the sacrifice of peak hp and 4-1 makes more peak power at the sacrifice of midrange power.Is this always true? :Not these days, when we have long hybrid 4-2-1's which combine the extra length of a traditional 4-1 and the layout of a traditional 4-2-1 (or tri-Y as they are sometimes called) into one header. Why is this new and different?:The header's primary tubes, secondary tubes, and collectors length & diameter affect WHERE power is created along the rpm range.To understand how header design affects power and powerband location, you have to first understand how the ACTUAL or REAL torque curve is shaped relative to the IDEAL shape of the torque curve when there is maximal cylinder filling, as shown in the graph here below: Explanation of the above graph: Exhaust gas flow velocity (or flow speed) determines where peak torque occurs along the rpm range. As a general rule, when exhaust flow velocity reaches the mean value of 240-260 ft/sec., peak torque is achieved. Peak torque also marks when your engine has achieved it's highest volumetric efficiency (or maximal cylinder filling ability). Control how fast you can get up to a mean flow velocity of 240-260 ft/sec by looking for certain header-exhaust characteristics or design and you control WHERE peak torque occurs. Notice that even if you can get optimal cylinder filling to achieve optimal volumetric efficiency, other factors, like how much exhaust gas you can remove from the cylinder after combustion, affects the maximal "actual" torque you can squeeze out of your engine package.------------------------------------------------GOALS OF AN ENTIRE EXHAUST SYSTEMThe 2 goals of a header-cat-exhaust system is to: a) to efficiently remove as much of the combusted inert exhaust gases out of the cylinder.Remember that burnt exhaust gas is inert or does not combust twice and therefore cannot make power if it is in the cylinder...it takes up space in the cylinder and prevents fresh air and fuel from coming into the combustion chamber to make power.b) to keep the velocity or speed of the exhaust gas leaving very high. When high exhaust gas speeds are reached, a wake is created from an exhaust pulse leaving the cylinder head (see SurferX's exhaust article here for some nice pics of this wake or pulse). Behind this wake, a vacuum is created. This vacuum sucks in more fresh air and fuel at cam overlap, when the intake valve is just starting to open and the exhaust valve is almost about to close. Since both the intake & exhaust valves are partially open at this time of cam overlap, header is actually "connected" to the intake manifold & intake port for a brief period. The exiting exhaust gas helps pull in the next fresh intake air & fuel. This is called scavenging. And scavenging is what helps draw in more oxygen and fuel for combustion. More fresh air and fuel coming in, with less inert burnt exhaust gases occupying combustion chamber volume, makes more power.----------------------------------A. FIVE HEADER DESIGN FACTORS AFFECTING WHERE PEAK TORQUE OCCURSThere are several aspects of header and exhaust tubing that affect when a mean exhaust flow velocity of 240 ft/sec. is achieved:1. Diameter (or header tube cross-sectional area) : Bigger diameter shifts peak torque to a higher rpm compared to a smaller diameter.The bigger the diameter, the more cross-sectional area. Exhaust flow must overcome this extra tube cross-sectional area and therefore the flow travels slower . It takes the rpms to climb to a higher rpm before the speed of 240 ft/sec (and therefore, peak torque) is reached. So increasing diameter shifts when 240 ft/sec and peak torque is achieved to a higher or later rpm, because it takes longer for the air flow speed to reach 240 ft/sec. In addition, a bigger diameter will increase the actual peak torque number (i.e. not only does diameter change the location, it also increases torque) . You can also vary diameter, as well, along the length of the header tube: This is called "stepping" the header. A "stepped" header will have along it's length the diameters gradually increasing as it moves towards the muffler end and away from the engine. Stepping a header will prevent exhaust flow from travelling backwards to the engine (called reversion). Stepped headers therefore have anti-reversion characteristics, as well as achieving a broader powerband. Figure 1. Here is a pic of stepped diameters on a Toda header where the diameters start at 45mm near the flange, then gradually increases to 50 mm further down at the secondaries, and 60mm just before the collector. Several good aftermarket headers are stepped. Some people port the JDM ITR or DC JDM 4-1 flange ports to a little larger diameter than the cylinder head exhaust port diameter to get this stepped effect early. Some people also port the JDM ITR 4-1 collector. Here's how much to dremel port the JDM ITR flange ports:quote: from Dave Stadulis at SMSPyou don't want to have the exhaust port on the head exactly matched tothe manifold/header...I've been told to have the header port about 1mm(.039") larger all around the head port and no larger than 1/16". Thisprovides an anti-reversion attribute to the header. The same goes forsteps in the individual tubes. 2. Length: Longer tubes will create more torque at the rpms below peak torque.How do they do this?Longer tubes will speed up air flow velocity. The flow velocity of 240 ft/sec and peak torque will occur at an earlier rpm compared to a shorter tube. Changing the length of the header primary tubes does not increase the value of peak torque like diameter does. Instead length changes the behaviour of the torque around peak torque along the rpm band.If you imagine the torque vs rpm curve from a dyno to be like a see-saw: then, on a see-saw there is a point where the plank sits to allow it to rock up and down. This is usually in the middle of the see saw and is also called the fulcrum. On our torque vs rpm curve, imagine the peak torque to be the fulcrum, although this fulcrum doesn't necessarily have to be in the middle like the see-saw...it can be moved. Changing length "rocks" the torque curve about the peak torque.If you have a longer primary header tube, the torque curve will "rock" in such a way that the left side is higher than the right side. There is higher torque at earlier rpms before peak torque. There is less torque at later rpms after peak torque.If you shorten the length of the primary tube, the torque curve will will have the see-saw with the right side higher than the left. So there is more torque at later rpms after peak torque. 3. Merge Collector Diameter, Length, Angle, and Layout: In terms of header layout, merge collectors are the portions of the header where the tubes join. So in a 4-2-1 header, the 4 primary tubes are first joined at a collector into 2 tubes. The 2 tubes are then joined by a second collector into 1 tube.In a 4-1, the 4 primaries are joined at only 1 collector into 1 tube.In some cases, the collectors are in a box shape where 2 tubes are stacked directly on top of the other 2 tubes. In other cases, the collectors have the top 2 tubes offset from the bottom 2 tubes. This is called a tri-Y collector. The box collectors give less header ground clearance than tri-Y collectors.Hytech Tri-Y collector Hytech Box Collector The collectors join the tubes and co-ordinate the 4 exhaust pulses leaving the primaries. Shorter, large diameter collectors have more peak power. Longer , smaller diameter collectors have more power in the midrange. The angle of the merge collector tubes should not be steep or sharp, in order to keep the energy or speed of the merging pulses coming from the tubes at a high level. For example, the stock ITR header has a less steep merge collector angle than the stock GSR header (see SurferX's article on the features of the ITR). So, the diameter of the collector affects the flow volume or how much exhaust gas can be removed and how much peak hp can be achieved. The bigger the collector diameter, the higher the peak hp you can achieve. This is why the better headers have larger 2.5 in. collectors instead of the usual 2 in. collectors in some aftermarket headers made to match up to the stock catalytic converter 2 in. flange.4. How the Header Primaries Are Paired -> Sequentially versus Non-sequentially: the ignition firing order determines which exhaust pulses leave in a particular order. In integras it's cylinder # 1,3,4,2. How we pair the header's 4 primary tubes together at the first header collector determines the horsepower vs rpm curve's characteristics or shape. Sequential pairing allows for a broader powerband and better acceleration properties from an engine.You can look at your header and see which tubes are paired together: Is it sequential: 1 with 2, and 3 with 4? Or is it non-sequential? 1-4, 2-3?quote: Originally Posted by SMSP...the firing order is 1-3-4-2, if we add a few more cycles so we repeat, it looks like 1-3-4-2-1-3-4-2-1 etc. So with a 4-cylinder engine how many tri-y configurations can we have? : If cylinder #1 is paired with #2, then #3 and #4 are paired. If cylinder #1 is paired with #3, then #2 and #4 are paired. However, both these set-ups are considered sequential pairing because each secondary gets 2 back to back pulses. Therefore, these set ups are the same and can be considered as 1 configuration. [Editor's Note: The HyTech header pairs 1-3, 2-4 sequentially. The SMSP header pairs 1-2, 3-4 sequentially ] Next we pair #1 with #4, and then #2 and #3 are paired. This is considered non-sequential pairing, since the pulses alternate from one secondary to the other. We can't pair #1 with anything else and so the fact of the matter becomes there are only 2 ways to configure a 4-cylinder tri-y header. Here's Larry Widmer's (of Endyn) take on sequentially pairing the header primaries (i.e. 90 crankshaft degrees apart from one another instead of 180 crankshaft degrees):quote: The reason sequentially pairing of header primaries works is due to the energy imparted to the exhaust charge. If you just do 180 degree timing on the exhaust side, the exhaust pulses are evenly spaced, and they do permit a certain amount of "tuning", as opposed to just dumping everything into one collector. When you space the tubes so there are more sequential pulses, the energy from one tube will have a much greater impact on the cylinder it's paired with, and the combined energy will have a much greater effect on the other tube it merges with. Even (non-sequential) spacing (i.e. pairing header primaries from cylinders 1 with cylinder 4 and pairing cylinders 2 with 3) is nice and smooth, but pairing sequential pulses provides more energy to work with.It's similar to the use of two single cylinder 2-stroke engines. If you want long running and smooth operation, connect the engines where they fire at 180 degrees to each other. If you want ball-busting acceleration, fire them together. It's all energy. You get the same amount either way , but the combination you pick will allow you to properly select the energy spread.On the exhaust side, you're dealing with waste heat, so if you can make it help scavenge other cylinder(s), you're simply not wasting as much energy. 5. Header Layout : 4-1 vs 4-2-1: A 4-1 header layout will have peak torque occurring at later rpms compared to a 4-2-1.Newer hybrid headers of the 21st century are a fusion of the old 4-1's extra length with the 4-2-1 layout, have stepped diameters, and have large diameter collectors. So you have low end peak torque with enough breathing capacity to support more peak gains (the best of both worlds). -------------------------------------------------------CONCLUSIONSo the old adage that 4-1 = more peak hp with a loss in midrange torque and 4-2-1 = more midrange torque with less peak hp is an obsolete idea these days when we have LONGER HYBRID 4-2-1's .

General Lee

Re: header

Post by General Lee » Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:50 pm

dari beberapa buku yang gue baca header ada 3 jenis. 4-2-1, 4-1 dan Tri Y. nah, header 4-2-1 itu yang digunakan mobil std. keempat pipanya bergabung hampir jadi 1. tp formasinya 4-2-1. kalau 4-1 udah pada tahu dong semuanya. sedangkan Tri Y itu 4-2-1 yang dikombinasi dengan 3 buah konektor (disebut sambungan Y). jadi yang sering disebut 4-2-1 itulah header Tri Y.

header itu komponen awal untuk menciptakan exhaust flow velocity. dimana saat kecepatan berada diantara 240-260 ft/sec disitulah peak torsinya dapat.
header 4-1 akan mencapai 240-260 ft/sec di rpm yang lebih tinggi. jadi bohong kalau 4-1 hebat tarikan bawahnya.

ya itu dia. header 4-1 memang bagus di putaran atas itupun power bandnya sempit, mesin butuh cepat dioper salah oper gigi atau telat bukan pada torsi yang dibutuhkan, untuk naik lagi rpm lelet.
4-2-1 memang punya power band rata (smooth) di rentang tenaga tengah. makanya pabrikan banyak pasang header 4-2-1 untuk harian.
nah, kalau ada yang pasang 4-1 dan put. bawahnya bagus berarti ada penambahan perangkat lain. entah unichip atau lainnya. kalau murni header doang bawahnya pasti jelek. cuma menang hentakan awal saja.

kalau emang mau membuktikan hebat mana (diputaran bawah) adu aja header 4-1 dengan 4-2-1 tapi dengan batasan rpm gak boleh lebi dari 3000. knp cuma sampe 3000 karena itu adalah rpm yang sering digunakan untuk harian (putaran operasional). gila aja kalau mobil harian tiap oper gigi di atas 6000 rpm.

memang menurut teori 4-1 punya peak power lebih tinggi dibanding 4-2-1. cuma 4-2-1 lebih punya torsi yang lebih tinggi.

untuk mengetahui seberapa kuat torsinya ajak aja mobil yang punya header 4-1 naik jalan terjal dengan muatan penuh. gue jamin ngos-ngosan. toh walaupun gak ngos-ngosan berarti dia terus main putaran tinggi. tinggal nunggu aja jebolnya.

di balap header 4-1 mutlak diperlukan mengingat spek balap digunakan supaya tenaga mesin cepat habis dan oper gigi ke tingkat yang lebih tinggi. selain itu spek balap juga sudah banyak menggunakan kombinasi gigi transmisi close rasio. main di trek yang sangat panjang 4-1 kedodoran mengingat power band mesin sudah mentok. sedangkan 4-2-1 maih terus naik seiring naiknya rpm. buktikan saja dengan teman. coba tes di jalan tol yang panjangnya lebih dari 20 km, pasti bonyok tuh header 4-1.

o iya header 4-1 ini pun kudu ada perhitungannya. di buku four stroke performance tuning bikinan graham bell dibahas juga mengenai header.

knp gue bisa bilang begini!
semua berdasarkan pengalaman. sebelumnya gue pakai header 4-1, buat luar kota kepayahan main di putaran tengah (2000-5000 rpm) apalagi kalau beban penuh dengan muatan.

sekarang header gue balikin std. eh power tengahnya yang gue inginkan justru keluar semua. buat luar kota enak banget. mesin malah jauh lebih irit.

soal header terserah sobat modcomers aja. mau 4-1 atau 4-2-1 itu sesuai selera. tp perlu diingat juga, jangan terlalu nafsu ngejar peak power, lebih baik penggunaan header disesuaikan dengan kebutuhan. kalau memang buat harian paling sip 4-2-1 (header std) bisa juga pake model Tri Y.
kalau buat balapan ya silahkan 4-1.

gak tahu lagi deh kalau emang ada pakar knalpot yang lebih hebat lagi. ini kan cuma hasil riset gue aja.
gue juga pernah riset knalpot motor khusus 2-tak dan sudah ketemu. sampai sekarang pun masih nempel di motor.

UNTUK PEMBUKTIAN GUE ADA GRAFIK PERBANDINGAN HEADER 4-1 DENGAN 4-2-1 CUMA ADA TROUBLE NIH. ATAU BISA DILIHAT DI THREAD YANG BAHAS HEADER 4-2-1 sequential DAN 4-2-1 non sequential.

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iphoer
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Re: header

Post by iphoer » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:19 pm

Waduh, panjang sekali ya...
Om jenderal bener2 jago... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
LET'S MAKE OUR FORUM BETTER AND QUALIFIED !!!
--> Less OOT and give some usefull Information <--

Nawee
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Re: header

Post by Nawee » Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:26 pm

iphoer wrote:Waduh, panjang sekali ya...
Om jenderal bener2 jago... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
:roll: :roll: :roll:
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

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